No.646
A man is saved by faith and works. Does a man have faith if his actions speak otherwise?
GTFO with this protestant bullshit.
No.647
Western theology totally missing the point as usual. We are saved by grace, yes, EVERYONE is. In the sense that EVERYONE will be let into the new and renewed earth. However not everyone will find it heavenly, so to speak. This is where the doctrine of Theosis comes in. We WILL be immersed in God's love and grace, but unless we have sufficiently exposed ourselves to holiness in this life and built a "tolerance", the fires of God will burn us instead of warming us. The Theosis is the "works" that are necessary for us to be ABLE to accept his grace.
No.648
>>647This reminds me of when atheists says "If heaven was real, I wouldn't want to be there".
Yeah, no shit.
No.649
>>648Exactly.
Every time someone remarks "heaven just sounds like slavery I wouldn't want to be there" it only further proves hell is self made and not a punishment.
No.656
>>646>PROTESTANTPROTESTANTPROTESTANTPROTESTANTPROTESTANTMindbroken beyond repair, the quote is from Scripture (Ephesians 2:8-10).
No.659
>>657>just one specific passage even doe it's repeated multiple times (John 3:16, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:28, Ephesians 1:13) Good works are the product of proper faith; they do not justify a man before God but are evidence of his faith to his fellow man.
No.660
>>659So now its about how can dig up more out of context passages? I assume that's what it is because you ignored the one that I dug up. Idk maybe I should go try to dig up 4 more to prove that I am more right
something like romans 2:13?
Or perhaps the Bible should be read as the entire document and interrupted trough the teachings of the church and not your own cherry picking.
And the notion that salvation is a gift also doesn't disprove what I've previously written at
>>647 which you don't even attempt to disprove because you only engage with arguments on the lowest possible level (that being pulling bible verses out of context)
No.661
>>659Yeah, thats why faith AND works saves a man.
The pharisees only cared about works and lost the meaning of the law.
No.664
>>660>James 2:24The context is important here. In James 2:14-26, James is not speaking of eternal salvation but salvation from the consequences of sin in this life. It's a warning against idleness, against assuming that eternal salvation is the end rather than the beginning, against saying "Okay, I've got my get-out-of-hell-free card, time to keep living the way I was before" (cf. Romans 6:1). When faith is "dead", it exists but is inert, not being properly used. Living faith produces good works. God will judge works both good and bad at judgement day (Revelation 20:12-13), but this is separate from salvation (Rev 20:15).
>TRUST THE EXPERTS CHUDDY geg
>you didn't disprove >>647 I'm not OP albeit
>you just pull bible verses without any higher engagementIf I knew we were gonna be treating this as a super serious theological debate I would have provided the more in-depth response above.
>>661>yeah, that's why [headcanon]Works are the result of a living faith, not themselves a prerequisite for eternal salvation.
No.665
>>664Ok so fait is the only thing necessary for salvation, but if you don't have the works it's a dead faith? That just seems like a round about way of saying works save. Works which will be judged, but not in relation to salvation but something else?
>gegAnd why ought I trust you? And not the body that Christ established SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of preserving his teachings. You know, the one that compiled the Bible. The one older than your fanclub for some thousand years. Evidently free and open debate about the bible is less than fruitful when it comes to determining objective doctrine. Bible is not a document that can be plainly read, unlike say, the council of Nicaea.
>>yeah that's why [headcanon]the irony is so lost on the protestants
No.667
>>665>Ok so fait is the only thing necessary for salvation, but if you don't have the works it's a dead faith?Yes, if your faith doesn't produce good works it's dead. "Dead" meaning inert, useless in the here-and-now. James isn't talking about eschatological salvation here.
>Works which will be judged, but not in relation to salvation but something else?In relation to rewards in heaven, yes. (Revelation 22:12)
>And why ought I trust you?You shouldn't trust me, you should read the Bible yourself.
>The one older than your fanclub for some thousand years.The Pharisees were older than the Church as well. Should we eschew eating meat and cheese together because the "traditions of the elders" extrapolated a commandment against boiling a kid goat in its mothers milk? Truth, not age, is what matters in evaluating a doctrine. (Mark 7:6-8)
Explain Paul's consistent insistence across multiple epistles that faith, not works, save. I dealt with the one section in James, now it's your turn. If he didn't mean that, what did he mean?
No.668
>>667Ok so any sort of faith is sufficient, even the "dead" one. So as long as you "have faith" whatever that means and wherever thats defined (seems like a a big oversight not to elaborate on that), You're all good. But works do effect rewards IN heaven? So we have tiers of heaven and we work for BETTER salvation, but everyone gets a basic salvation as long as they "believe"? Who did you get this theology from, fucking marx? Universal basic salvation? what are you talking about?
The passage seems to reinforce the orthodox position rather than anything else. Each person will be rewarded in accordance to their works, good AND bad works , proving that the afterlife, heaven and hell are in a sense "self made". Work not being just physical work, obviously, but spiritual work as well (I was hoping this was a given but better be safe than be misconstrued). Kinda like how accepting Christ "into your heart" could be called a work. a mental, cognitive or indeed spiritual work (you I imagine would reject this premise). Again, the nonsense you spout just seems to be a butchered version of orthodox theology.
No.669
Pharisees were old, sure, but in my opinion God coming down from the heavens in the flesh and establishing a church sort of overrides the authority they had, no? The church was established to preserve the truth, you can't just come in claiming you know better whilst also citing the book they compiled. It's a fact that what you believe would have been alien to any Christian a thousand years ago.
And as for paul in, for example, Romans 3:20 he's obviously referring to the old, jewish law.
But it is true that salvation is given to us, not earned. The earth will be renewed for everyone and God's fiery love will embrace us all unconditionally, but we have to cooperate and that starts in this life.
ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT BODY WAS TOO LONG
No.670
Also, just pondering this over dinner,
what's this faith that is enough? just believing that Jesus is Christ? well that qualifies demons too. Is it just some abstract trust or love for God? is all it takes for salvation that one simply "have faith" in Christ with no change of behavior ACTUALLY being necessary? Then why wouldn't EVERYONE believe in God? is the only thing stopping them soyance, lack of evidence or their own stupidity? is the struggle of good and evil merely an intellectual one? surely not! But that's what's implied by your idea of salvation.
Let's have a thought experiment. Would a person that "accepts Christ" but goes on murdering be saved? A person that has faith but then goes on killing raping and kills themselves? Surely not. What about a person that kills but repents and turns back to God? surely. So then we confirm that salvation is fleeing. It can be lost and recovered. As we say in orthodoxy "I have been saved, I am being saved and I am yet to be saved". It's not just a point in time where you "accept Christ" of find "faith". It's an ongoing struggle that doesn't resolve at a single point in time.
No.671
And this whole heaven reward according to works defeats the entire point of sola fide. The point of sola fide is that we all DESERVE hell (true doe) but that God in all of his mercy spares us, and gives us heaven which we cannot deserve (earn). If you just turn around and say "ok but we CAN earn a BETTER heaven" that completely contradicts the first premise!
And this is why the average person cannot interpret the bible. The average person is retarded and comes up with retarded theories of the divine (no offense, I love retards). That's why we need a church to preserve and teach the truth and not a retard free for all.
Please do tell me I misunderstood everything you said and inaccurately extrapolated your so called theology
ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT EXPAND THE POST SIZE LIMIT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW
No.672
>>669>>668>>670>>671I was going to respond with more arguments, but ultimately I must admit I'm in over my head here. You haven't convinced me of your position but you have given me a lot to think about, regarding both my views and yours, and I thank you for that. I admire your articulate understanding of your beliefs, and even if we disagree on this issue, you're still my brother in Christ. Praise be to God.
No.673
>>672Aye, I respect your humility. I apologize for being crude, evidently I struggle with temperance
God bless and guide both you and me
No.689
>>669>>670>>671Couldn't resist making a wall of text, ay?
Alright, I will increase the limit.
No.720
>>673If you're still here I'm up to continue this, though in a spirit more befitting a discussion between men of God.
What's the Orthodox position on what Ephesians 2:8-10 means?
No.721
>>720Just plainly reading the verse it seems to put more potency on the fact that it is a gift that no man shall boast about receiving. And I agree with that fully.
Salvation is given to us by God's grace alone, I have no intention of disputing this. There is no way for us to earn it. We do not deserve it, it is a gift. However even a gift can be rejected. We are asked not to earn the gift of salvation but to accept it, God won't force anyone to accept his grace. God gifts us with his fire, his energy, but there is nothing he will do if we refuse to bathe in these energies. This is the doctrine of Theosis. How can one so fallen accept the gift of perfection, without lifting a finger? The gift of salvation starts in this life and we are called to partake in it, not to earn it.
No.722
You're thinking in a rigid legalistic view typical of western Christians. One may call it the opposite side of the same coin the pharisees were on. While the pharisees were working to redeem themselves and ear favor with God, reformers believe, rightfully, that a man cannot earn salvation. And in order to fit in the legalistic model, in error they reason that Christ was killed to "pay off" the wrathful father who had forsaken him on the cross, thus earning us salvation and absolving us of all sins. And if this is how salvation comes to us then works become irrelevant, out of the equation. This obviously doesn't seem right, so workarounds are constructed, such as saying "well work isn't required but if your faith is valid you will work" which ends up being rather circular, or the "well works earn a separate reward" which I honestly haven't heard before.
Then again, I am no theologian nor am I a member of the clergy, I am sure you can find a much more satisfactory explanation from one of those, or even on the internet.
+=ZOOOOOOOOOOOOT THE BODY WAS TOO LONG AGAIN AND IT TELLS ME I MISTYPED THE VERIFICATION AFTER I SHORTEN IT SO I HAD TO RELOAD THE PAGE=+
No.724
>>643What's interesting for me is, knowing that the world exists only through God alone, is that we wish to learn more about Him with academics like theology and apologetics. The problem is that since God is incomprehensible, we will never fully know everything about who He is and what He does, which is ironic since we still wish to know Him more.
My question is, how do we get to learn more about Him while we're still on earth, while humbling ourselves and accepting that we will never comprehend things that are above us?
(also can't believe our /qa/ is more like /his2/ while the sharty's /qa/ is more like /co2/ AHHAHAHAH)
No.763
>>762Why ShadowMario acted like this tho ? only on Ohio
No.764
>>763Soyteen posts TTD in normalgroid website… lives to regret it…
No.790
>>720https://youtu.be/FZ-s3CnwngQI found this video and thought you would probably find it interesting as well
No.823
yeah, i'm thinking new colony just dropped